Not really sure it belongs in the spoiler forum but since Spike on Angel is mentioned, just wanted to be safe


http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=200306...10-010116-3263r

James Marsters on Life After Buffy
By Karen Butler
United Press International
Published 6/11/2003 12:45 PM
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CATSKILL, N.Y., June 11 (UPI) -- The final episode of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" left rabid fans debating several burning questions, among them: did Buffy (Sarah Michelle Gellar) mean it when she told reformed vamp Spike (James Marsters) she loved him?

Talking to more than 800 spellbound fans at a Moonlight Rising "Buffy" convention over the weekend, Marsters offered his take on the series finale, stating unequivocally that Spike died knowing Buffy never loved him, but deeply appreciative of the fact she said she did.

"It's true," Marsters insisted. "It's the truth and he shows his manhood by saying so. Yeah. I thought that what the final episode did very well was admit that Buffy really is in love with Angel. That the sexual relationship she had with Spike was unhealthy. That it was unwise.

"It was fun to watch, but it wasn't good for Buffy and that Buffy was discovering a level of respect newly for Spike that she hadn't felt before and as a friend, she knew he loved her and she wanted to give him something because he's about to die and he shows the strength to say: 'Well, no. That's very kind of you to say, but that's not true' and I'm comfortable with that. I don't need to be Buffy's one. I think that would have been really strange. Thematically, it would have been really difficult. Spike was evil. They never really played Spike as the boyfriend you ever really want to have... The truth is, if a guy is a jerk to the rest of the world, he's going to be a jerk to his girl or his lady or his woman. Nice guys rule!"

The handsome 40-year-old California native also said he found it disturbing that although he kept trying to reveal Spike's evil side to the show's viewers, his all-too-forgiving fans stood by their vamp. Therefore, in order to turn people against Spike, he said, the show's writers added a shocking scene where he tries to rape Buffy at the end of the series' penultimate season.

"(Attacking) Buffy to prove my love? Hello!" he remarked, incredulous. "So, I started to get uncomfortable because people still wanted Buffy and Spike to be together, the same way I was uncomfortable with smoking too much because a lot of young kids watch and I didn't want to make that cool."

Asked what it was like to film that infamous scene, the nice-guy actor grimaced, "That was the hardest day of my life."

"I have turned roles down because they are rapists," he confessed. "It's something I don't even want to watch. If I even click on it on TV, I have to click it off or I'll put my foot through the screen... What you see on that screen is just my terror at having to do that scene. There's not really any acting going on and I haven't watched the scene. I've seen little clips. You know, 'previously on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer."' They show it sometimes and I'm always like, 'Oh, God.' I hope that since Spike has a soul he's not capable anymore of doing anything like that. That's what I really hope. That they won't bring him back in that state of mind... The writers are fabulous, but when I showed up on set that day I told them: 'Sometimes you guys just don't know what you do. You just do not know what you're asking us...' I'm proud of it artistically, but as a human being I never, never, never want to do a scene like that again and I will always refuse because I know what it does to me."

Marsters is set to reprise the role of Spike next season on the WB's "Buffy" spin-off, "Angel," but the actor hinted that he and the show's namesake probably won't be battling evil saide-by-side.

"I really hope that Spike and Angel don't get along at all," he admitted, a touch of mischief in his voice.

Noting that series creator Joss Whedon skillfully pit the two rehabilitated vampires against each other in the last episode of "Buffy" a few weeks ago, the actor quipped: "I said, 'Angel wears lifts.' So, I don't think we're going to become allies. Hopefully, I don't know what it's going to be, but I want to make life as tough as possible for Angel and, of course, everyone knows Joss always listens to me."

Marsters also took the opportunity to dismiss rumors that Spike, the vampire with a soul, would return from the dead as a human.

"Spike become a human?" he mused in mock horror. "How boring is that? No, he's not going to do that. That's just misinformation. God help me."
Marsters is currently touring Europe with his rock band Ghost of the Robot and is expected to start filming "Italian Heat" with Derek Jacobi and Sean Bean in September.

"It's from a hit play on the West End of London called 'Italian Heat,'" he said, "and being that there's a lot of sex in it, I think that's the wrong title. It sounds like soft-core porn... It is about a gay man, who I play, who is in a marriage in fascist Italy and he's got a horrible marriage and two refugees come into the house that he lives in --- one's gay and one's not -- one takes to the wife, one takes to the guy."

Marsters revealed that he drew on the pain of one of his own failed relationships to prepare for the role.

"The thing is that in fascist Italy, people were being hung for being gay and the thing that I responded to in the script was --God, let's get personal --I was in a long-term relationship. In fact, I was married to a woman who didn't really love me... Anyway, God..." he candidly acknowledged, drawing a breath. "I know what it's like to live a lie without even knowing you're living a lie and in my experience there was a sexual component to it and so what I responded to in the script was that a scene could be about how important it is to be yourself no matter what that is and how high a price you have to pay or should be willing to pay to be yourself."

Marsters recalled how thrilled he was when he first heard about the project since two of his favorite actors were also starring in it.

"It was a big deal!" he exclaimed. "And I was all excited about it and I went to my manager and said, 'Do I have to kiss a guy?' And he's like, 'Oh, yeah.' And I was like, 'Argggh!' And then I read the script and there was so much more than kissing that I froze up for a while and I just put the script away and I started making my own personal connection to it and so I feel like I can play that role.

He added: "I know what it's like to have that bottled-up anger. You think you know what the problem is, but it's really not... So, I'm started to get excited about it and I'm less terrified than I was two months ago. Two months ago, I probably wouldn't have wanted to talk about it, but you don't refuse a film like that. It's a really great script and I'm looking forward to it."

He was married?

James in a gay role, hmm, interesting.

I really hope Spike and Angel don't get along, I want them to antagonize each other. Somehow I don't think I'll be disappointed.

As to Buffy's "I love you." Well, as I said in the "Chosen" ep thread, her telling Angel that Spike was in her heart was enough for me. The Spuffy shipper in me is happy that he went out with that comfort.
And the scene with B/A made the lingering B/A shippiness in me smile. Of course I'd like to hear what Joss has to say but either way, I'm a happy little camper.

Thanks mlkj13

QUOTE (Tawanda @ Jun 11 2003, 09:04 PM)

As to Buffy's "I love you." Well, as I said in the "Chosen" ep thread, her telling Angel that Spike was in her heart was enough for me. The Spuffy shipper in me is happy that he went out with that comfort. And the scene with B/A made the lingering B/A shippiness in me smile. Of course I'd like to hear what Joss has to say but either way, I'm a happy little camper.

ditto!

can't wait to see James in that role...I think he's a brilliant character actor. Most stage actors are.

"italian heat" sounds like a hottt movie. congrats james!!

Wow, "Italian Heat" sounds like it has a pretty good premise. Good job James on taking a risk.

Can't wait to see Italian Heat James will be great. He's played a gay guy before when performed in plays.

Yep, James was married to Lianne Davidson. Not much info around on it, but I think they were divorced around the time he got on Buffy, and they might have a son. Lianne has a son, but James has never confirmed or denied that it's theirs, but many sites have said it was and wasn't.
I'll wait until I hear it from James.

I don't agree with James's opinion on B/S, but him being the actor and everything I can definantly see where he's coming from and why he would think that. But it seems like he still thinks of the character as season 6 Spike and not the one who has the soul and deserves redemption.

edited

I'm happy with Buffy feeling platonic love for Spike (something which I don't have any doubt that she did...especially given the "he's in my heart" line). I would have had problems buying anything else at this point. I definitely think that had Spike and Buffy continued to work side by side in the manner they had been that something else could have developed further down the line (possibly many years down the line...since she would have some "baking" to do regardless of whether or not Spike was still around). But obviously that's not really too relevant at this point in time.

The ME line seems to be that Buffy and Angel still love each other, and that Buffy felt a platonic love for Spike. At least that's the impression that can be drawn from the comments made by all of the relevant cast members recently. They've apparently decided to completely overlook the whole A/C thing...and that suits me just fine.

QUOTE

But it seems like he still thinks of the character has season 6 Spike and not the one who has the soul and deserves redemption.

I agree.

I don't agree with James opinion about Buffy and Spike. He said that Buffy really loves Angel ( and I think that's true) and then he said that Spike was evil. Well, he says that Spike was evil and at the same time he says that Buffy with Angel is better ( he said ince that he is B/A shipper). Angel was as evil as Spike was in the past, and then he got soul ( he didn't want it, he was cursed) and Spike after that episode of Buffy, when he tried to rape her, he got a soul ( HE got, HE went to look for it, to became a better " man" ). I'm not saying that he is wrong about that, this is his own opinion, and I'm just saying mine.

He was married to a woman who didn't love him? WHAT IS SHE CRAZY???? James, I love you..marry me! *joking* Anyway, can't wait to see what happens on Angel...should be great

QUOTE (Vixen @ Jun 12 2003, 10:47 AM)

I don't agree with James's opinion on B/S, but him being the actor and everything I can definantly see where he's coming from and why he would think that. But it seems like he still thinks of the character as season 6 Spike and not the one who has the soul and deserves redemption.

I totally agree with you. I don't agree with James' comments on B/S but he is the actor portraying Spike and I can definitely see where he's coming from. He still sees Spike as the Spike from Season 6. Which I don't understand. Since the Spike in Season 7 was different from the Spike portrayed in Season 6.

I don't understand why James said that Buffy is really in love with Angel and that all Buffy felt/feels toward Spike is something platonic as in friendship. That so isn't the case. Buffy felt more than friendship with Spike.

Personally, I think only Joss can answer that for certain. He wrote it and it's his story. The actors have their opinions and given how difficult the attempted rape scene was for James, and understandably so, I can see how he is still very disturbed by it and perhaps doesn't see what we do. Perhaps in his eyes there's nothing, not even a soul, that can fully redeem Spike enough for Buffy to love him romantically and perhaps that's true. He may be correct, it may just be platonic, which I can accept, but I would like to hear what Joss has to say about it. He would have a better grasp on the entire thing since he would know what he intended.

Hopefully when Buffy's done baking we'll know one way or the other.

QUOTE (Tawanda @ Jun 12 2003, 08:08 PM)

Hopefully when Buffy's done baking we'll know one way or the other.

I hope she's on a high heat...

I posted this in the thread for the con, but no one read it I guess, lol. Oh well.

Anyhow, yeah, he was married, and he got very emotional talking about it. I think everyone in the place wanted to just give him a huge hug.

QUOTE (Leigh @ Jun 12 2003, 02:45 PM)

I hope she's on a high heat...

There is so much I could say or add to that,but in keeping with the PG-13 rating of this Board.....I won't. *ahem*

QUOTE (Cheese_Enthusiast @ Jun 12 2003, 02:52 PM)

I posted this in the thread for the con, but no one read it I guess, lol. Oh well.

Sorry...I checked your thread but didn't see the article

QUOTE (Cheese_Enthusiast @ Jun 12 2003, 02:52 PM)

I posted this in the thread for the con, but no one read it I guess, lol. Oh well. Anyhow, yeah, he was married, and he got very emotional talking about it. I think everyone in the place wanted to just give him a huge hug.

I read it but I think I was so blown away with his pics, more specifically his arms (wolf whistles!!! ) that I missed it. This article didn't have that distraction.

And Leigh that "high heat" thing is just begging to be misconstrued.

QUOTE (Tawanda @ Jun 12 2003, 09:17 PM)

And Leigh that "high heat" thing is just begging to be misconstrued.

Muhahaha

Think if I propose to James he'll say yes?

What am I SAYING!? Ah! Sorry.. the humidity is getting to me.

QUOTE (LilBufBuf @ Jun 12 2003, 04:10 PM)

Think if I propose to James he'll say yes? What am I SAYING. Ah! Sorry.. the humidity is getting to me.

Are you sure it's the humidity?

QUOTE (Tawanda @ Jun 12 2003, 04:11 PM)

QUOTE (LilBufBuf @ Jun 12 2003, 04:10 PM) Think if I propose to James he'll say yes? What am I SAYING. Ah! Sorry.. the humidity is getting to me. Are you sure it's the humidity?

pffft... Buffy still really loves Angel.

Kill me now.


What doesn't make sense to me is that in season 6 B/S clearly has enormous physical attraction and compatibility one for the other. So Buffy's very physically attracted to Spike. She says she can't love him though, because she could never trust him enough. This season she grows to respect and trust him to the extent that she can tell Angel of all people that he is "in her heart".

That's why the 'it's a platonic love' thing doesn't sit well with me. If that were so, would everyone around them really be "feeling the heat".

QUOTE (BlueSuzanne @ Jun 12 2003, 07:19 PM)

pffft... Buffy still really loves Angel. Kill me now. What doesn't make sense to me is that in season 6 B/S clearly has enormous physical attraction and compatibility one for the other. So Buffy's very physically attracted to Spike. She says she can't love him though, because she could never trust him enough. This season she grows to respect and trust him to the extent that she can tell Angel of all people that he is "in her heart". That's why the 'it's a platonic love' thing doesn't sit well with me. If that were so, would everyone around them really be "feeling the heat".

Agree about the strength of the B/S connection. I guess I feel that the "Platonic" label is misplaced because of the perception of it signifying a lesser union. With all they have been through, for Buffy & Spike to be able to see each other as "friends" is a much different circumstance to me, than the usual, "lets be friends" usually indicates.

I think that the label "platonic" definitely applies to Buffy's relationship with Xander. With Spike it's much deeper. They may never have a physical relationship again, but the fact that they did, and that the physical attraction will always be there, it adds a different dimension to their "friendship". They're ex-lovers who have been able to transcend all the bad stuff and can concentrate on the good stuff. It's more comfortable than her relationship with Angel, because for them not being physical is a choice; with Angel, it's a necessity, due to the curse. There is a level of comfort between Buffy and Spike that is unique to them.

Lynn

QUOTE (LynnB @ Jun 12 2003, 10:21 PM)

I think that the label "platonic" definitely applies to Buffy's relationship with Xander. With Spike it's much deeper. They may never have a physical relationship again, but the fact that they did, and that the physical attraction will always be there, it adds a different dimension to their "friendship". They're ex-lovers who have been able to transcend all the bad stuff and can concentrate on the good stuff. It's more comfortable than her relationship with Angel, because for them not being physical is a choice; with Angel, it's a necessity, due to the curse. There is a level of comfort between Buffy and Spike that is unique to them. Lynn

Very well said. That totally nails the sitch IMO.

QUOTE (LynnB @ Jun 12 2003, 10:21 PM)

I think that the label "platonic" definitely applies to Buffy's relationship with Xander. With Spike it's much deeper. They may never have a physical relationship again, but the fact that they did, and that the physical attraction will always be there, it adds a different dimension to their "friendship". They're ex-lovers who have been able to transcend all the bad stuff and can concentrate on the good stuff. It's more comfortable than her relationship with Angel, because for them not being physical is a choice; with Angel, it's a necessity, due to the curse. There is a level of comfort between Buffy and Spike that is unique to them. Lynn

Yep. *applauds*

QUOTE (LynnB @ Jun 12 2003, 10:21 PM)

I think that the label "platonic" definitely applies to Buffy's relationship with Xander. With Spike it's much deeper. They may never have a physical relationship again, but the fact that they did, and that the physical attraction will always be there, it adds a different dimension to their "friendship". They're ex-lovers who have been able to transcend all the bad stuff and can concentrate on the good stuff. It's more comfortable than her relationship with Angel, because for them not being physical is a choice; with Angel, it's a necessity, due to the curse. There is a level of comfort between Buffy and Spike that is unique to them. Lynn

Beautifully put

For me, "platonic" love can be just as important as romantic love. Maybe my opinion on that will change someday, but when I say that what Buffy feels for Spike is a form of "platonic" love, I certainly don't mean for that to detract in any way from what they had. IMO Buffy gained more from that "platonic" relationship in S7 than she did from any other relationship she had on the show (and I include Angel in that).

I suppose it's a misuse of the word "platonic" in a way...because of what happened between them in S6 (even though it was a different Spike). However, when I say "platonic" in this case I mean it in the sense that for the moment anyway, Buffy is not looking towards Spike for a romantic relationship. She's relying on him in many other ways (which in this case I feel are more important) that's for sure, and there was certainly room for their relationship to develop in the future.

QUOTE (LynnB @ Jun 12 2003, 10:21 PM)

I think that the label "platonic" definitely applies to Buffy's relationship with Xander. With Spike it's much deeper. They may never have a physical relationship again, but the fact that they did, and that the physical attraction will always be there, it adds a different dimension to their "friendship". They're ex-lovers who have been able to transcend all the bad stuff and can concentrate on the good stuff. It's more comfortable than her relationship with Angel, because for them not being physical is a choice; with Angel, it's a necessity, due to the curse. There is a level of comfort between Buffy and Spike that is unique to them. Lynn

Very well put. That totally nails the sitch.

QUOTE (Jennifer Marsters @ Jun 13 2003, 07:46 AM)

QUOTE (LynnB @ Jun 12 2003, 10:21 PM) I think that the label "platonic" definitely applies to Buffy's relationship with Xander.  With Spike it's much deeper.  They may never have a physical relationship again, but the fact that they did, and that the physical attraction will always be there, it adds a different dimension to their "friendship".  They're ex-lovers who have been able to transcend all the bad stuff and can concentrate on the good stuff.  It's more comfortable than her relationship with Angel, because for them not being physical is a choice; with Angel, it's a necessity, due to the curse.  There is a level of comfort between Buffy and Spike that is unique to them.  Lynn Very well put. That totally nails the sitch.

I agree.

Thanks, everyone

Leigh, no need to explain. The word "platonic" is merely the closest one we can use to describe the relationship, because the relationship itself is a very complicated one to define.

I think your comments are very spot on, in fact James said something similar when he was in Chicago. He said that maybe men and women aren't meant to make each other happy, but to make each other stronger. I think your words suggest that, and certainly Buffy and Spike's relationship in season 7 suggests that. For while she leaned on him later, he certainly leaned on her earlier. They helped each other, made each other stronger when they were at their most vulnerable. It was beautiful, and as good or better than any romantic relationship either has had. And as I said, because the element of choice is there that currently isn't with Angel, if they got the chance it could develop into something romantic. Being lifemates is just as rewarding and satisfying as being soulmates.

Lynn

ME left it open for viewers to believe Buffy and Spike had sex in Chosen. The scene where she comes down the stairs and then they look at each other and it pans out is a device I have seen so many times during the 1940s and 50s movies. You must remeber that James Marsters saying that Buffy did not have sex with Spike has no weight whatsoever considering that he is not a writer and he is just trying to be socially responsable and disuade young girls from getting into a relationship like B/S and with a guy like Spike. James Marsters in an interview 2 weeks ago said a totally opposite thing about B/S. He said in that interview that Buffy does love Spike, but because of her job she doesn't love him as much as he loves her, her duty as the slayer keeps her from fully loving him. If her duty keeps her from fully loving him it should also keep her from fully loving Angel. Yet, at this convention James said Buffy doesn't love Spike and she fully loves Angel, which is a strong change from what he said in the past interview.

The real underlying truth is that JM is horrified at the idea of people liking a relationship like B/S and a guy like Spike because he fears that women out there will decide that they will go out with a guy like that or enter into a relationship like that because they like Spike and B/S. And, JM fears that women will think that they can change a violent rapist boyfriend thru love as Spike changed for Buffy. Hence, JM saying that if "he is a bad man to others he will be a bad man to you" to female fans at every convention since last summer. But, that is just plain underestimating ones audience, no girls out there are going to date a mass murderer that tries to rape them because they like Spike and B/S, there are no such things as soulless vampires out there, and the audience does know that (except for one or two people that are really out there of course). Not once did JM bring up all the good things in Spuffy, especially this season, he always harps on the worst parts to disuade women from a relationship like Spuffy. Personally, I believe that JM should leave it to parents to lecture their kids about bad relationships and bad boyfriends, I like that he feels socially responsable, but I really don't think it is his place to tell us what we should and should not feel about Spike and relationships like Spuffy.

The truth is that both Joss wanted to keep their options open and keep both B/S and B/A fans happy by making things ambiguous. But, Joss did give us enough to allow us to make up our own minds free of interviews from SMG, JM, or ME about the story that was being told.

Caesar, I agree with you, and to be honest, I think JM's comments about Buffy not being able to love enough because of her calling are more likely what he thinks. But, in Chicago, there was a teenage girl who stepped up the mic and said she'd been fantacizing about him since she was in the 6th grade! He was understanably freaked out, as was I and many others. My first thought was, where was her mother?! You are right, parents should advise their kids, it shouldn't be left up to James; but apparently that girl's mother either didn't know or didn't think it important enough to advise her daughter that it wasn't appropriate, especially to actually tell him that. This is what James is beginning to deal with at his cons. A shame really.

Lynn

QUOTE (LynnB @ Jun 13 2003, 04:23 PM)

Caesar, I agree with you, and to be honest, I think JM's comments about Buffy not being able to love enough because of her calling are more likely what he thinks. But, in Chicago, there was a teenage girl who stepped up the mic and said she'd been fantacizing about him since she was in the 6th grade! He was understanably freaked out, as was I and many others. My first thought was, where was her mother?! You are right, parents should advise their kids, it shouldn't be left up to James; but apparently that girl's mother either didn't know or didn't think it important enough to advise her daughter that it wasn't appropriate, especially to actually tell him that. This is what James is beginning to deal with at his cons. A shame really. Lynn

I remember at the con I went to most of the really obnoxious and shockingly personal questions/comments came from these really young girls/teenagers (and I'm not coming down on younger people, that's just how it was). Most of the women, and by that I mean like 18+, were appalled and really embarrassed for him. I don't remember anything specific because that was like 4 years ago but I remember thinking, "Oh my God! I can't believe she asked him that."
It's so out of control, it's got to be rather uncomfortable for him sometimes.

I thought it was great that no one really asked him embarassing questions at this con. Someone said, "I just have to say that it must be such an ego trip for you to wake up and look in the mirror in the morning," LOL, that was pretty funny.

I don't 'ship now so I might not have any valid points but...I decided to put my outlook on this anyway. When the show started, I was a major B/A fan until Riley, then I just stopped. Way too over my head confusing and all that. So, being that I had bias at one time, there still might be some bias in me. Excuse any biased comments that come forth from this post, as I'm trying to stay as neutral as possible. However, I don't like the Spuffy relationship. At points it was sweet, but I could never forget the brutality with which it was forced in Season 6. That's a horrible and abusive thing to go through, and I think no young woman should have to suffer it. Especially the "attempted" rape at the end (I won't go into speculation there). I think that since the relationship grew in an unhealthy place, it could never go to a completely healthy level. I believe that yes, Buffy could forgive Spike for the atrocities he committed against her and as a vampire, and perhaps love him but not be in love with him. Whether or not Angel is her true love (blah blah blah...) is an issue I won't touch right now. I DO however think that comparing physicalities of a relationship between Spike and Angel is really useless. I don't think that Buffy and Angel had much of a choice, and I think that their love kind of transcended the sex thing, even if it was a necessity. Saying that Spike and Buffy don't have sex because "they don't want to", doesn't really justify anything about the relationship. I, personally, think that they had enough sex in Season 6 to last ten years of celibacy. I am completely comfortable with the fact that Spike "knows" that Buffy doesn't love him, or if she does, is not in love with him. She never did anything to prove said love, and they never had a relationship chock full of normalcy. There were sweet moments, with the holding and the kissing and whatnot, but in the end I really don't think that she belongs with Spike (am I saying Angel? No.).

There also is my issue with the "new" Spike. I loved old Spike, when he was still evil and sexy and funny. I'm not digging on the new Spike and hopefully he will get over being whipped and him and Angel will have a tumultuous relationship. It could prove to be very humorous in the next season of Angel.

hold up a minute....James was married to a woman who didnt love him??????????????????????? that girl musta been insane!!!!!!!! How can you not love James??? Alright..well thats all have to say

I'm confused by the constant use of "whipped" in reference to Spike in Season 7. Was he "whipped" in Season 5 while he was helping the Scoobies, particularly in "Intervention"? Was Angel "whipped"?

QUOTE (Caesar @ Jun 13 2003, 10:21 AM)

James Marsters in an interview 2 weeks ago said a totally opposite thing about B/S. He said in that interview that Buffy does love Spike, but because of her job she doesn't love him as much as he loves her, her duty as the slayer keeps her from fully loving him.

Hi,Caesar!!!

CAn you put a link to that article?Thanks

QUOTE (Premiere @ Jun 14 2003, 03:20 PM)

I'm confused by the constant use of "whipped" in reference to Spike in Season 7. Was he "whipped" in Season 5 while he was helping the Scoobies, particularly in "Intervention"? Was Angel "whipped"?

Angel's character was never meant to be initially "evil". He had that tortured soul thing, and later his alter-ego was displayed after having sex with Buffy, but I'd have to say that Angel was never "whipped". IMHO, I think that the main reason that Spike is helping the Scoobies at all is because of Buffy. Angel didn't need Buffy as the driving force behind his redemption. So yes, in reference to Spike, I do say whipped.

QUOTE (nonsunshine @ Jun 14 2003, 09:41 PM)

Angel's character was never meant to be initially "evil". He had that tortured soul thing, and later his alter-ego was displayed after having sex with Buffy, but I'd have to say that Angel was never "whipped". IMHO, I think that the main reason that Spike is helping the Scoobies at all is because of Buffy. Angel didn't need Buffy as the driving force behind his redemption. So yes, in reference to Spike, I do say whipped.

But didn't Angel decide to join the side of good because of Buffy. In Becoming 1, he was totally indifferent and didn't make the decision to become a champion for good until after he saw Buffy. Whether it was romantic or not, she was his driving force.

Does that make him whipped? Maybe, maybe not but his motivation was definitely Buffy.

QUOTE (nonsunshine @ Jun 14 2003, 08:41 PM)

. Angel didn't need Buffy as the driving force behind his redemption. So yes, in reference to Spike, I do say whipped.

I don't know, Angel was chasing rats in alleys until Whistler showed Buffy to him.

QUOTE (Premiere @ Jun 14 2003, 09:52 PM)

I don't know, Angel was chasing rats in alleys until Whistler showed Buffy to him.

LMFAO!!!!!!! Oh wow........

QUOTE (Premiere @ Jun 14 2003, 09:52 PM)

I don't know, Angel was chasing rats in alleys until Whistler showed Buffy to him.

LMAO!

QUOTE (Tawanda @ Jun 14 2003, 09:48 PM)

But didn't Angel decide to join the side of good because of Buffy.  In Becoming 1, he was totally indifferent and didn't make the decision to become a champion for good until after he saw Buffy.  Whether it was romantic or not, she was his driving force.  Does that make him whipped?  Maybe, maybe not but his motivation was definitely Buffy.

That is true - Buffy showed him the "light" if you will. She was the force that started Angel's revelation and journey to become a champion, but she only fueled it for what - 3 years? The whole time that Spike has been 'good', his main focus has been on Buffy's perspective and what she would think of him. In the beginning, when he was getting paid, it wasn't simply the money. He wasn't "good" in Season 5, he was simply afraid that Buffy would kill him if he didn't comply with what she asked. Then later on, his obsession with her fueled the need to do good, and still later it caused him to get a soul etc. etc. That's only one in a series of reasons why I don't like Spike anymore. He doesn't seem to have any reason for existing, except for Buffy. That's what I would call 'whipped'.

QUOTE (nonsunshine @ Jun 15 2003, 01:48 PM)

QUOTE (Tawanda @ Jun 14 2003, 09:48 PM) But didn't Angel decide to join the side of good because of Buffy.  In Becoming 1, he was totally indifferent and didn't make the decision to become a champion for good until after he saw Buffy.  Whether it was romantic or not, she was his driving force.  Does that make him whipped?  Maybe, maybe not but his motivation was definitely Buffy. That is true - Buffy showed him the "light" if you will. She was the force that started Angel's revelation and journey to become a champion, but she only fueled it for what - 3 years? The whole time that Spike has been 'good', his main focus has been on Buffy's perspective and what she would think of him. In the beginning, when he was getting paid, it wasn't simply the money. He wasn't "good" in Season 5, he was simply afraid that Buffy would kill him if he didn't comply with what she asked. Then later on, his obsession with her fueled the need to do good, and still later it caused him to get a soul etc. etc. That's only one in a series of reasons why I don't like Spike anymore. He doesn't seem to have any reason for existing, except for Buffy. That's what I would call 'whipped'.

I'm not disputing that Buffy was Spike's driving force. I am saying that she was also Angel's. In one of your posts you say that Angel didn't need Buffy as his driving force for redemption, well maybe not after the 3 years that he worked with her and the scoobies but, as Premiere pointed out, when he was chasing rats in the sewers, she was his beacon and he only made the decision to get on that path of redemption because of her. He even admitted as much in Helpless when he said that he loved her the first time he saw her. Now maybe he never dared dream that they would hook up but he had those romantic feelings for her even back then. She was the only reason he didn't ignore Whistler. And his entire purpose in Sunnydale for that time was to help the slayer. She was his driving force. It was only after 3 years that he began seeing beyond the "Buffy" horizon, and that was only because he moved to LA (again because of Buffy) and then Doyle got on his butt and kicked him into gear.

And who knows, in a few years maybe Spike's reasons for seeking redemption may also go beyond Buffy as did Angel's. He only started helping for whatever reasons in S4, this was S7. Three years. By Angel's precedent, he's right on schedule.

I am not saying Angel's whipped, neither do I think Spike is, I am saying that Buffy was at the root of both their decisions.

Thanks for the article

hear hear!!

(everybody took the words out of my mouth...anything I say now is going to make funny echo sounds)